|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 3,421
Location: UK
|
Well many thanks for those essays on what i said was from my gb based opinion. All im going to say is good things come to those who wait.
Heavy Cranes
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/11/2006
Posts: 3,421
Location: UK
|
DeWoc19 wrote:
to be perfectly honest i think its quite silly to have to remove the outriggers in order to travel, so the crane cant even show up to the jobsite and set up immediately, it has to wait to have the outriggers put on, not that its going to take that much time but it seems senseless to me.
Every large crane has to wait for bits to show up, what makes the outriggers so different? In the us, you have to take the boom off on some larger crane. In mainland europe, the ssl and maybe even out riggers. So how can travelling with them not on be silly. Anyway In most of the cases i have seen, the ballast wagons either travel ahead of the crane, say with luffer and the cranes still de-ballasting or in convoy with it, so its not like they are going to be sitting there hours waiting for the bits to arrive.
Heavy Cranes
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/7/2008
Posts: 1,560
Location: Waterford, Ireland
|
Firstly, I am not for or against either crane in particular until the demag arrives and has time to prove itself. There are just some issues to be pointed out.. I've heard from a very very good source that the reason the ac1000 is so far behind schedule is becuase 4 of terex demags' senior crane designers/engineers left the company to go working for tadano faun. As for the 112 being out a couple of years before the ac1000, i'm sure if demag were designing the ac1000 to be used primarily with boom off, they could have had the crane released long ago. Obviously there are extra challenges involved in designing a 1000 tonne crane that can travel with boom on. If liebherr were to design a similar boom on type crane, i'm sure it would take them a long time too! Dewoc, how is waiting for the outriggers to arrive any different than waiting for the boom to arrive? As Jack said, every large crane has to wait for bits to show up. Sure, you cant jack the crane up til the outriggers arrive but you can still have all the mats in place ready to go when they do come (which i'm sure wouldn't be long as the support trucks tend to travel in a convoy with the crane anyway), so there should be no significant loss in set up time between waiting for the outriggers or waiting for the boom! Finally, I think Mark hit the nail on the head. In the vast majority of countries the ac1000 will probably not be able to travel legally with boom on anyway so I dont think Liebherr are thinking that boom on is the way forward and that the 11200 was a mistake. In the US and Australia, a 500 tonne crane needs a boom dolly or boom off to travel, so the boom on design of the ac1000 will be no advantage whatsoever to them, I cant see this crane travelling with 100m of boom on a boom dolly! It may be the ideal crane in this size range for the likes of ainscough, who's bulk workload is in the UK where axle laws are reasonable and travel distances aren't huge and dont involve crossing the continent to get to sites. 
Noel.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/17/2004
Posts: 264
Location: Scotland
|
Can I throw my tuppence worth in here? From what I,m being told there is a major "flaw" in the Liebherr 1200 that I have never heard anyone mention. It is I believe to be the tyres, (wheels) the spacings in them are so close together that they cannot get on 1600 sized tyres. Therefor they have to travel with 1400 sized tyres and that is why
a. They cannot travel with the boom in place as what was originally planned.
b. The road speed is severely restricted due to the smaller tyres being used on the crane.
I think I,m right in these quotes as it came from a very good factory source!
Ray
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/17/2004
Posts: 264
Location: Scotland
|
Just been reading the previous posts too. Please don,t everyone forget that both cranes have their pros and cons. The Demag with a single engine, No main winches on board, Weight of the boom etc. The liebherr with as I stated tyres, price etc. Also don,t forget that the Liebherr can only lift 363 tons 360 deg. Personally I don,t think thats too impressive for a 1200 ton crane when a few decades ago a Grove TMS180 would lift 18 ton 360 degrees as long as it had the 5th outrigger!
Maybe everyone should just stop getting too excited about these "large" cranes and see them for what they really are! Compare the both of them with same sized crawler,s duties and spot the difference!
Ray
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/11/2008
Posts: 1,605
Location: North Wales
|
I've heard that about the tyres and the 112 as well Raymac. All the other talk is simply not productive, as a personal opinion I believe the AC1000 will be a very good crane, I was speaking to one of our leading tech reps not so long back, some of the pro's that will stand the AC1000 out from the liebherr are rigging times, it is a quick machine to put together, its versatile and in some applications boasts lifting duties far more than the liebherr. Cons however are, size and weight, the base machine is very heavy and massive!....an issue in cities and tighter sites and the superlift cannot travel on the crane meaning if it is needed, and a boom of that length it will be most the time, a rigging crane must be provided. It really does not matter about the outriggers coming of, even if it is only 2 as they are quicker to attach than a boom!
However, until the AC1000 is out working we will not know how well it compares to the liebherr, and price was mentioned earlier....i have it from a pretty good source that the AC1000 is more expensive to buy than the liebherr!
Gaz
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/17/2004
Posts: 264
Location: Scotland
|
Hi Gaz, I myself am delighted the way my Terex is performing, outseeding all expectations and canna really complain about it. On a personal note, I have just started a new second man with me that u may know, Crooky, he was on a 500 with Ainscough! He,s come to the green side for the now anyway!
Ray
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/11/2008
Posts: 1,605
Location: North Wales
|
Ray, Tony is well pleased with his AC350 too, he was in our yard not so long back and was chatting about it, he said once you've got your head around it it's a very good crane. Friend of mine has just started on a LTM1350 at Bronzeshield so i'll be getting his opinion on that soon.
And yes I know Ian, was working with him over bank holiday earlier in the year, he had my 150 as a rigging crane for his 5 on luffer. Had a good laugh on that job, his 2nd man was Andy Walls and the two of them were a pair of comedians!
Gaz
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/17/2004
Posts: 264
Location: Scotland
|
I was down ur way last week. Took down a tower crane at the Maritime Museum at Greenwich then I lifted a 60ton gantry across all the lanes of the M25 one night. I think one of our 500,s is still down that way too!
Ray
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/11/2008
Posts: 1,605
Location: North Wales
|
Raymac wrote:I think one of our 500,s is still down that way too! Yes mate, it was parked in our yard last week, was weird a green 5 in the yard!!!  . I've been doing a lot of the smaller gantries on the 25, 30 - 40t ones for Nusteel. Gaz
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 9/6/2006
Posts: 675
Location: Southern Ontario Canada
|
Demag/Terex might be ahead size and thoughtfull wise but there no where near quality wise they look good but are still plagued with hydrolic and electrical nightmares
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/11/2008
Posts: 1,605
Location: North Wales
|
rollinlowford wrote:Demag/Terex might be ahead size and thoughtfull wise but there no where near quality wise they look good but are still plagued with hydrolic and electrical nightmares I can give another take on that with my LTM1150, I've had it from new, almost a year now and it has been a nightmare for problems, electrical and mechanical. This might be a individual case but my opinion of Liebherrs has been affected. Gaz
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/17/2004
Posts: 264
Location: Scotland
|
My cranes only a year old the now so I haven,t encountered any electrical problems. As for hydraulics I,ve had plenty of slack hoses and spraying out oil when it gets worked hard but then again that is a QC issue nothing else. Yes Gaz thats who I was on hire too also, Nusteel. The wee gaffer guy didn,t have a good word about the other Terex,s he worked with however he praised our one for speed and efficiency!!!! 
Ray
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/11/2008
Posts: 1,605
Location: North Wales
|
Raymac wrote:The wee gaffer guy didn,t have a good word about the other Terex,s he worked with however he praised our one for speed and efficiency!!!! Thats geezer is a idiot! He will not have the 150's anymore cos he reckons they take too long to set up, i've had a few rows with him! I must admit i fancied one of them AC350's and originally the one that went to Hayes was coming to our depot and my name was on it but the manager turned it away at the 11th hour because of space in the yard! i was gutted! Gaz
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/1/2006
Posts: 4,065
Location: Dublin Ireland
|
to the guys complaining about the delay in the ac1000,did you not read the recent thread about the CCM D9H's?? I take it no, I'm 99.999% sure Terex are working tirelessly to end up with the best possible product they can offer,if they were to release a product sooner than they should with them being not fully satisfactory with, it would no doubt show up flaws and be a multi million Euro failure which could be disasterous for the company,I would bet they have quite a few orders already for this crane,we have just heard about Ainscough and Franz Bracht both very established lifting companies who rarely if not never get things wrong,if the machine was the apparent lesser of the two surely the order book would read "0",the LTM11200 is the only 1200 tonne crane out at the moment in the west so by default its both the best and worst,I can bet my life Terex either got their hands on one or went over one with a fine tooth comb to pick up ideas or to see where they can improve,this happens with everything ever made,for example GM will buy a handfull of cars from other manufacturers and the cars they are making to compete directly with the opposition they will do their best to improve on design and function,does this not make sense? is a 2010 BMW 535d not a better car than a 2006 Mercedes E320D? so Terex have i think at least a 4 year jump on Liebherr with respect to this,and of course Liebherr are or have been working possibly on a crane to either replace the 112 or a new crane altogether which will incorporate some of the features now highlighted by the 112,if so this should be a superior crane to the Terex equivilant the all up weight of the boom of the 112 is 104tonnes,the all up weight of the AC1000 outriggers and super lift will surely be less,at 104tonnes the 112 boom can only be transported at certain times and at certain speeds,with the superlift and outriggers they are not one load,they can be broken down,maybe(remember I said maybe) the 4 outriggers plus tractor unit will come in under 44tonnes,then these can be shipped by regular truck,any where any time and not restricted to speed, as was mentioned above these are all just pros and cons of which each crane will have over one another, as far as I stand,I believe the Terex will have an edge over the LTM11200,as it is a newer machine and in my life anything old I have has been superseeded by newer items,be it,cars,tv's,toasters,models,girlfriends  .... anything,however if it doesn't show advantages over the LTM11200 then Terex better hope they sell enough to cover their costs
Why is "phonetically" spelt with a "ph"? ... It's better to be silent and thought a fool, then to speak up and remove all doubt The complex of Newgrange was originally built between c. 3100 and 2900 BC,[2] meaning that it's aproximately 5,000 years old. According to Carbon-14 dates,[3] it is more than 500 years older than the Great Pyramid of Giza in Egypt, and predates Stonehenge by about 1,000 years.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/23/2010
Posts: 701
Location: Washington, DC
|
Generally Liebherr builds a machine that has been engineered in great deal with details that others often skip being considered in their designs. That being said, the more electronics that have been added, the less reliable all makes have become.
I sense that Liebherr was well along in their design of the LTM11200-9.1 when first announced and am suspicious that Demag said "we too are offering a 1,000 ton machine" believing that delivery of the actual crane was farther away than it was. Liebherr then shortly delivered the actual machine for public viewing thus placing Demag in a bind. The then Terex ownership needed to deliver a machine that would provide a valid competitor if not superior. They need to come up with something worth the wait but had the benefit of responding. Certainly carrying the short boom on-board is a significant factor. Assembly time and ease is money in the daily rental business.
I've heard comment regarding the lack of staff at the former Demag operation before. The older Demags such as the AC535, AC635 and then the AC200 and AC350 made many friends and supporters of the Demag product. The AC500s and the AC650 and later AC700 likewise continued that traditon. The AC1000/9 has to make an impact as many of the more recent Terex all terrains seem to be a re-juggling of the existing parts bin. The same has been true of the crawlers except for the CC8800 Twin. The CC8800 twin took a different approach with the dual booms as opposed to many other larger crawlers. I except the Terex engineers in Germany have had their hands full particularly if their is going to be a truely international Challenger series that replaces both the smaller Demag designs as well as those of the former PPM.
In the mean time Liebherr has now announced what is a possible competitor to the AC700 in the LTM1750-9.1. We shall wait and see if it does that same to the AC700 that the AC1000/9 is hoped to do to the LTM11200-9-1. Yes they see the gap in their line that Terex has covered.
Grove has avoided building anything larger than the GMK7450 (GMK7550) and avoided the fray for what initially is a small but spectacular segment of the market. I sense that as size creep and technology continues, even they will introduce something larger than 450 metric tons as these sizes become more main-stream.
The company that obtains the best mobility with quickest assembly world wide with the greatest reliability will win the sales competition over the long term.
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 7/25/2006
Posts: 154
Location: Slagelse, Denmark
|
Raymac wrote:Can I throw my tuppence worth in here? From what I,m being told there is a major "flaw" in the Liebherr 1200 that I have never heard anyone mention. It is I believe to be the tyres, (wheels) the spacings in them are so close together that they cannot get on 1600 sized tyres. Therefor they have to travel with 1400 sized tyres and that is why
a. They cannot travel with the boom in place as what was originally planned.
b. The road speed is severely restricted due to the smaller tyres being used on the crane.
I think I,m right in these quotes as it came from a very good factory source! Well - I respect your sources, but I think you're wrong: A: The way I read your statement, then the LTM would be able to travel with the boom, if the crane could be fitted with 16.00 sized tyres instead of 14.00 sized tyres. I find it difficult to believe, that the crane - if fitted with larger tyres - could travel with a boom no lighter than 52,1 ton (T3, no TY) plus the carrier with 108 ton on the scale. Permitted axle loads are the same regardles of 14.00 or 16.00 tyres. B: How is the road speed restricted? Top speed is rated at 75 km/h in the datasheet. How fast would you like to go in the crane? 120?
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 11/17/2004
Posts: 264
Location: Scotland
|
Kristoffer, thank u for ur queerie, The LTM12000 was originally planned to run with the basic boom case section, as indeed the LTM1500 are supposed to run legally in this country (eg. without any tele sections in place) It is a lot easier and quicker to insert sections with a smaller crane than to assemble and disassemble the whole boom. Yes another crane may of been required but 9 times out of 10 that would be on the site anyhow.
As for the tyres, Hmm and now we are getting to a very touchy and complicated subject, tyre manufacturers no longer build tyres to the quality that they did in previous years, THERE IS NO GUARANTEES ON CRANE TYRES! Reason AXLE WEIGHTS! In order for me to get the total benefit from my tyres ( and we,r talking about a 6 axle AC350 here grossing 16.5 ton/axle = 99tons Daz shut up here!!) I would legally have to sit at 26mph in order not to cause any damage to my tyres, deformation or overheating. I may add that no one does this because its not practicable, bad enough holding traffic up at 40mph! what I was saying about the Liebherrs choice of sized tyres their weight and speeds MUST be LESS than what I stated for my crane purely on the size of the 1400 tyres (I,m running1600)
Hope I,ve explained but I think on this subject the less said the better as it can only open a can of worms here!
Ray
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 2/8/2008
Posts: 4,170
Location: Anchorage, AK
|
Interesting thread... 
|
|
Rank: Advanced Member
Groups: Member
Joined: 4/20/2010
Posts: 582
|
Gaz... do you know where Ainscough's first job is with the AC1000 when it arrives Sam
Sam My equipment picture thread
|
|
|
Guest |
